In Which MedievlMn explains Christianity
In Which MedievlMn explains Christianity
I am interested in "Mental Modelling", which I consider to be the highest function of intelligence. It's as close to reality as we can get. A Mental Model is a clear, consistent and complete entity in the mind, which reflects reality. The individual understands it and can explain it in clear concise terms. It can be interrogated to explain real phenomena and to provide answers which are useful and predictive in the light of truth or fact.An individual who has a good set of Mental Models is well equipped to deal withlife. Such individuals construct their Mental Models from first principles.
For example a physicist and mathematician can recreate formulae that he has forgotten. He can explain real world events and predict them accurately. The reason is that he has a Mental Model of the physical world. Scientists don’t tend to rely on beliefs and are much less likely to be religious. Even if they do have beliefs, they don’t tend to use them to describe phenomena that can be described in physical terms.
On a lower level, there is the adoption of a belief system, a set of rules to live by. If these rules are sensible, as they might be if provided by organised religions or other well-planned belief systems, they are a help to the believer if the only alternative is chaos. Beliefs and rules are essential to this kind of existence. The problem is that many situations are not covered by the rules; also there is some difficulty in deciding how the rules should be applied.
On the lowest intellectual level there is what might be termed a vocal animalism, where there are no real rules and the individual lives for the moment without regard to any higher model of conduct. This works too, for example, it works for all other animals.
Intellectuals who have well defined Mental Models have problems
communicating with people lower in intellectual order. In fact the intellectual is at a disadvantage in argument, because he can only reply by interrogating his Mental Models, whereas his opponent has no higher purpose to serve and can be entirely arbitrary in his interpretation of rules and self-serving in his utterances. Only the intellectual has insight.
An individual without a Mental Model is unable to give a straight answer to a straight question.
SirOracle is Sanctity the channel is #theology
* Mike_c has joined #theology
Mike_c i am an intelligent Christian searching for
debate
Sanctity Do you believe that Mary and
Martha the sisters of Lazarus, were the plural wives of Christ?
(Editor’s Note: Mormons are Christians and these are
some of their less publicised beliefs)
Sanctity It's a valid Christian view. This
channel is called #theology
Mike_c Sanctity, please preface your
statements to me with "mike", i am doing other things
DivineOb Sanctity`: where do you get that
idea from?
Sanctity mike: do you believe that Mary and
Martha the sisters of Lazarus, were the plural wives of Christ?
DivineOb are there verses which lend evidence to
that?
Mike_c Sanctity, i dont think Jesus had any
wives.
Sanctity mike: a lot of people believe that
he did, and they're all Christians
Mike_c Sanctity. ok. i dont.
Sanctity mike: do you believe that Lucifer
was the brother of Jesus?
Mike_c Sanctity, no. lucifer was around
long before jesus was born
Sanctity mike: again, a lot of people believe
that Lucifer and Jesus were brothers, and again, they're Christians.
Mike_c Sanctity, a lot of people believe in profesional
wrestling too.
Sanctity mike|: is professional wresting
your religion?
Mike_c Sanctity, no, but the fact that a lot
people believe in something is not relevant to anything.
Sanctity mike: what is relevant then? Do
you think your religion is right, and these other religions are wrong?
Mike_c sancity, no. i dont think there is any red
tape with respect to God. as long as you are a good on earth, you will get to
heaven, irrespective of your religion
Sanctity Mike: if, as you said, people's
beliefs are not relevant, then you also agree that your belief is not relevant
either?
Mike_c sanc, they are relevant to me
Sanctity mike: but the God that these
other people believe in, and their way of life, is equally relevant to them.
Mike_c Sanctity, thats fine.
Sanctity mike: so you believe then that
there is a separate God for everyone who has beliefs, and the God you believe
in just belongs to you?
Mike_c no, i believe there is one God Sanctity,
and different people can reach him in differeng ways
* MedievlMn has joined #Theology
Sanctity mike: but, if Jesus did have
plural wives, as some Christians believe, that's a fundamental difference. Can
God be reached by those who have plural wives?
Mike_c i dont know
* Dove-Cat sets mode: +o MedievlMn
MedievlMn Why necessarily speculate
that Jesus had any wives. There is no prooftext.
Sanctity Here I must mention that this
channel is called #theology, not #my-specific-brand-of-religion
Mike_c sancity, fine.
Sanctity Many Christians believe that Jesus
was married to both Mary and Martha, the sisters of Lazarus, and to Mary
Magdalene.
MedievlMn Why?
Sanctity And that he also had other wives.
Sanctity I don't know why.
Dove-Cat Many Christians--supported by what
Dove-Cat perhaps the qualifier should read
"some"
MedievlMn Let's see...any spare women
that happen to be around,..are default wives for Jesus? Why?
Sanctity As I said, I don't know why.
Dove-Cat So this is just a statement you chose to
make...
MedievlMn Neither do the "many
Christians" which I suspect are few and confused.
MedievlMn The attempt to wive Jesus
has the same age-old motivation as other similar ruses..
Sanctity This channel is called #theology.
The topic we're discussing is theology.
MedievlMn the end is to un-deify
Jesus and make Him a mere man. human only, with no claim to deity.
MedievlMn These things are all theoilogical
in nature...
MedievlMn the theological subj. we
are currently discussing is called Christology in the theology books.
MedievlMn Christology is the subj.
and study of the person of Christ, incl. whether or not He had wives, of which
there is no indication wahtsoever, unless you count that He was in the same
vicinity as other women on occasion.
Sanctity If Christ plays the major role in
a people's beliefs, then they are Christians
MedievlMn I do not count proxemity as
proof that Jesus was married to women.
Sanctity Does proof have anything to do
with what you believe?
MedievlMn Without faith it is
impossible to please God.
MedievlMn Belief doesn't come by
proof, but the power of Scripture..
MedievlMn faith comes by hearing the
word of God.
Sanctity Faith and proof are different
things. Mark Twain said "Faith is believing what you know, ain't
so".
MedievlMn Your point is obscure. Do
you have an accusation to make?
MedievlMn What's your beef, in other
words.
MedievlMn specify.
Sanctity Accusations aren't my style. I
have no beefs.
* Mike_c has left #Theology
MedievlMnSanctity
Does proof have anything to do with what you believe?
MedievlMn what did this question
mean? It is syntaxically, uh, challenged
Sanctity I'll express it differently.
DivineOb no it isn't
MedievlMn ah..
MedievlMn thanks]
Sanctity Does what you believe depend on
proof?
MedievlMn So your accusation, which
are ordinarily not your style, is that I demand scioentific or empirical proof
for all of my tenets of faith?
Sanctity Or does it depend on faith?
Sanctity There is no accusation
MedievlMn is that your..implication?
MedievlMn There is no proof of the
spiritual realm..
Sanctity There is no implication. Just
answer the question. It's easy enough.
MedievlMn God has so ordered it that
it is beyond the discovery of humankind by scientific analysis..
MedievlMn Therefore, if I wait for
hard proof of the spiritual realm, I wait forever
MedievlMn There are, however, reasons
to trust scripture based on good evidence that they are ancient, authoratative,
archeologically correct, etc..
MedievlMn but that doesn't constitute
a leap of faith.
MedievlMn I belief because God has
enlightened me and given me the ability to understand spiritual things..
Sanctity So your answer is, to make sure I
understand you, that your belief does not depend on proof, and moreover God has
arranged things such that proof is impossible?
MedievlMn I believe
MedievlMn certain proofs.
MedievlMn there are diff. kinds of proofs..those
associated with God and those not.
MedievlMn If someone sets out to
prove God exists by syllogiostic logic, he fails.
Sanctity What is your attitude to those
people who believe entirely different things, which are based on exactly the
same sources?
MedievlMn If he sets out to prove God
exiwsts by heeding the proofs of Scripture and the proofs of the enlightenment
of the Spirit, he succeeds.
MedievlMn I leave all of that for God
to sort out, as He will also sort me out, and you.
Sanctity If your belief is valid, then are
the beliefs of others, which are different, invalid?
Sanctity Simple question
MedievlMn I do not participate in
arguing issues of exclusivity,..
MedievlMn what does it matter?
MedievlMn Are you hoping just to be
offended by my stance?
MedievlMn Does exclusivity offend
you?
MedievlMn I can neither advance nor
deter anyone from salvation.
Sanctity Of course not. You're a
Christian, and full of tolerance and forgiveness.
MedievlMn I have no say in the
eternal destiny of others.
MedievlMn ah..
Sanctity If I offended you, you would
forgive me and offer the other cheek
MedievlMn I see now
MedievlMn your accusation, as I see
the sarcasm, is that Christians have some exclusive franchise on intolerance
that has magically skipped ovber everyone else?
MedievlMn untrue
MedievlMn we do no sin to exclusion.
Sanctity The word "faith" is
interesting. If it forms the basis of your beliefs, what does it mean?
MedievlMn we are all in the same
human boat
MedievlMn there is no escape from
hypocrisy and intolerance, and non-Christians have mined these sins as well as
Christians..
Sanctity Never mind about that, then.
Sanctity What do you mean by
"faith"?
MedievlMn read the Biblical def. it
does better than i could:Heb. 11:1
MedievlMn I believe because I fail in
any attempt to disbelieve.
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Dove-Cat Morning Blue
MedievlMn The same can be said about
unicorns. Idon't believe because I fail to believe.
BlueFang evenin' Dove
Sanctity When translating the Bible, the
word faith was given a different meaning than it had in the original texts.
(Editor’s Note: it originally meant trust and loyalty)
DivineOb what I think is funny is how christians
want to put christians and nonchristians on the same level
DivineOb but, of course, christians ought to be
judged by a much higher standard
Sanctity That's why I'm asking you what you
mean by "faith".
MedievlMn and,..by the way,..where is
your absurd running diatribe today..that bad writing you like to foist on all
of us, in the confused belief that we are hanging on every ill-conceived word?
DivineOb is Sanctity` SirOracle?
Sanctity What does "faith" mean?
MedievlMn I suggest remedial creative
writing, perhaps night school.
DivineOb or were you talking to me?
Sanctity This is #theology. This is a
theological discussion between Christians
MedievlMn And,..you might want to
look up this definition: redundancy.
Sanctity I have no criticisms of you nor of
what you believe. You can say anything you please about me or about anybody
else.
MedievlMn I think I just did.
MedievlMn and,..you are less than
candid about not having any criticisms of my faith. I think you have many.
Sanctity What do you mean by
"faith"? If it is what your beliefs are founded on, then you should
be able to explain it. That is what missionaries and evangelists do.
MedievlMn Hmmm.
MedievlMn a more sincere inquiry I
have seldom received.
MedievlMn I think I'll pass...
Sanctity Take a moment to think about it.
MedievlMn I don't have to think about
it, I am full of the subject, not unlike you being full of B-grade journal
entries.
MedievlMn however..
MedievlMn I am unmotivated to broach
the subj. here..
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MedievlMn I have a crisis of uninterest.
MedievlMn so..ask the folk in #poetry
Sanctity Christ said that you must forgive
those who sin against you, for your own sins to be forgiven.
Sanctity Do you believe that?
MedievlMn do you ask forgiveness?
MedievlMn sincerely, of me?
Sanctity I'm asking you.
SaintSoul hmm
SaintSoul kinda glad I haven't been here for this
one.. heh
SaintSoul hiya MM
SaintSoul =)
Sanctity Well, let's take it as read. As
you're a Christian, you must believe it.
MedievlMn I forgive you. Still, no
debate with you on this subj. at this time will be forthcoming.
Sanctity If you forgive then there is an immediate
benefit.
MedievlMn My ans. is: the def. of
faith is in Heb. 11:1
SaintSoul =)
Sanctity But you have to forgive truly and
unconditionally.
MedievlMn there is no better answer
than to invoke Holy Writ. I rest in that answer.
Sanctity The benefit is that the offence
that you have forgiven no longer has any effect of your conduct.
SaintSoul How about "Those who have little to
be forgiven them.... have little to love in Heaven"
SaintSoul =)
Sanctity This is called Christianity
MedievlMn Are you seeking, like, a
free pass for future offenses?
SaintSoul MM - u talkin to me?
MedievlMn no
SaintSoul ok
MedievlMn Many times, forgiveness is mislabeled
as license.
SaintSoul God is Merciful =)
MedievlMn those seeking it are
looking for a way around future responsibilities.
MedievlMn and freedom from
restitution for past offenses.
MedievlMn it's rather a selfish def.
of forgiveness..
SaintSoul well... I dun have the power to forgive
sins..... but I can forgive others. =)
MedievlMn it's really more of a maneuver..
MedievlMn to escape responsibility
SaintSoul Jesus roolz, satan droolz =p
MedievlMn "Forgive me,
Christian, I punched you out! Oh forgive me again, I did it again! Hey, this
forgiveness stuff is fun!"
SaintSoul lol
SaintSoul Noone said it's easy to forgive..... especially
when a great wrong has been done to you.... grudges are hard to let go.. and
virtually impossible without Jesus
SaintSoul Those who do not love are not of God, for
God is Love. Whosoever hateth his brother has not the love of God in him.
SaintSoul and so on and so forth et cetera et
cetera ad infinitum. =)
SaintSoul powa-preachinz
MedievlMn Forgiveness must be granted
when the petitioner is sincere and repentent...if the petitioner is merely posing..and
the act of asking for forgiveness is a cynical ploy to do more evil, then the
petitioner becomes persecutor...this is not a vehicle for proper forgiveness.
Sanctity That was not what Christ said.
MedievlMn post the reference.
MedievlMn the seventy times sevemty
rule of forgiveness, presupposes that the petitioner is sincere.
MedievlMn always, sincerity is the
rule of forgiveness, on both sides of the forgiving.
MedievlMn not mere asking
SaintSoul yeah
Sanctity “I say unto you, Love your
enemies, bless them that curse
Sanctity you, do good to them that hate
you, and pray for them which
Sanctity despitefully use you, and
persecute you”
Sanctity Are you clear now?
SaintSoul heheh..... that's one of my very fav
verses Sanctity
* SaintSoul doesn't see what yer debating tho
SaintSoul you gotta be sincere because God knows
your heart.... why would an insincere person even come to God for forgiveness?
MedievlMn That verse falls more often
from the lips of those who hate Christians, and look to gain an advantage by
reminding Chriswtians that no matter the dispicable acts done to them, they
must stand sheeplike around and take it and more..
Sanctity I'm posting the reference that MedievlMn
asked me to post.
SaintSoul You can't use God's abundant mercy as an
excuse (or license) to continue sinning.
MedievlMn ironic that those who most
quote this verse, hate the Scriptures in general..but see this verse as a
chance to pacify Christians from any response
Sanctity Did Christ say that, or not?
SaintSoul MM - Those are truly pathetic individuals
who have not the love of God in them.
MedievlMn In fact, this verse is
taken seriously by Christians and put into faith and practice, along with other
verses that say to resist evil, and NOT be sheep who merely stand around
waiting for the slaughter.
Sanctity What do you mean by faith?
MedievlMn I pray for my enemies, both
percewived and proven...always..
SaintSoul But even as those who hate God and the
Word would use that to manipulate Christians.... we must be obedient disciples
of Christ and take no revenge, but pray for them.
MedievlMn by doing so, I pray for
myself.
SaintSoul "Father forgive them, for they know
not what they do."
Sanctity SaintSoul, nobody is crucifying
you.
MedievlMn But still, in the act of
ASKING for forgivenss, which the above text doesn't include,..
MedievlMn sincerity is necessary in
the petitioner.
SaintSoul "No man can redeem his
brother."
SaintSoul I agree with you, MM
MedievlMn We are speaking of those
who ask for forgiveness.
MedievlMn not in our attitudes in
general toward those who persecute us while NOT seeking forgiveness.
Sanctity There has been no reference here
to asking for forgiveness, nor did Christ say anything about the subject.
MedievlMn they are separate
considerations.
SaintSoul ok.
SaintSoul Well because when we are guilty we are so
before God..... I would think asking forgiveness from Him would be similar to
simply praying..... not to make a public scene, or doing so
half-heartedly......
MedievlMn Oh yes, Christ gave a very
specific formular for asking for forgiveness, and also for accusing another of
sin in order to prod them into asking for forgiveness.
MedievlMn formula
MedievlMn read Matt. 18
MedievlMn Christ had much to say
about personal forgiveness between two people at odds.
MedievlMn The irq, by the way, is not
a good model for much of this.
Sanctity He said "First be reconciled
with thy brother, then come to the altar and offer thy gift".
MedievlMn There is so much artifice,
so many poseurs..
MedievlMn one can never be sure of
reality.
MedievlMn in that lack of clarity
about what is real and what isn't...
Sanctity Only God can forgive you, as I
understand the Christian religion.
MedievlMn Biblica mandates regarding
seeking of forgiveness and the seeking of admissions of guilt to enact forgiveness,
are altered.
MedievlMn God forgives in the
eternal, condemnatory sense..
MedievlMn but people forgive one
another daily..as instructed by scripture
Sanctity Let me rephrase that, because I
speak English english, which might not be clear to you.
MedievlMn good one.
MedievlMn a hearty laught here.
MedievlMn laugh
SaintSoul hrm
SaintSoul =)
MedievlMn That you say that amid your
fractured syntax..
Sanctity In Christianity, to the best of my
understanding, only God can forgive your sins.
MedievlMn I love it.
* Klark-K has joined #Theology
MedievlMn in the eternal sense, yes
Klark-K good evening all (:
MedievlMn on earth, people forgive
one another their transgressions on an earthly plane..read the Lord's prayer.
Sanctity Christianity requires that you
forgive the sins of others, unconditionally.
MedievlMn not so
SaintSoul Forgiveness is God's ultimately, but yes,
the Lord's prayer reconciles us to forgive each other
MedievlMn I saw long ago that you
were after that vague and universal idea..
MedievlMn haters of CVhristians love
to advance that thought..
MedievlMn it's usually a ploy to do
more evil.
Sanctity Explain what you mean. I only
have the words of Christ to go by.
SaintSoul "Whosoever shall sin against the son
of man shall be forgiven, but whosoever shall sin against the holy ghost is in
danger of everlasting hellfire" right?
Sanctity Is that Christ speaking?
MedievlMn Thoe who hate Christians
the most, yammer about Christians needing to forgive all constantly..
MedievlMn seems a little cynical and
manipulative, eh?
SaintSoul Yes... those who hate Christians have
Satan working through them to twist the Word of God against us.
MedievlMn The worst lamers who hate
the existence of Christians, never fail to have the "You gotta forgive me
no matter what" routine in their mouths along with the hatred and bigotry.
MedievlMn It's a hoot.
SaintSoul It's sad.
SaintSoul But..... once they've received His
Gospel, if they continue in their denial, we are to shake the dust from our
feet and depart =)
MedievlMn It's possibly the clearest
syndrome on the irq..
SaintSoul It's not our duty to MAKE them right...
we're doing His Work as long as we try. =)
SaintSoul what's IRQ?
Sanctity The words of Christ, as reported
in the Bible, are the basis of Christianity.
MedievlMn "here, let me kick you
in the groin! ..now you gotta forgive me..here, let me do it again...okay gimme
the forgiveness, you scummy Christian...here's another one..forgive me, $#@!! it!"
SaintSoul Yeah
SaintSoul Those who have not the love of God in them
become obvious rather quickly.
Sanctity That is what Christ said. He said
it on the Cross
MedievlMn There is no absolution form
Christians for continued evil.
MedievlMn from
MedievlMn there is no formula that Christians
are required to follow to aid and abet evil against them.
MedievlMn Forgiveness may be inner
and personal and doesn't preclude self-defense and retaliation within
Scriptural dictates.
SaintSoul It is wrong for us to continue to allow
ourselves to be sinned against and abused, simply because an anti-Christ
loophole in the Word.
SaintSoul Satan will use any thing he can against
us.
Sanctity SainSoul just repeated Christ's
words. If you have a different opinion, then whatever it is, it isn't
Christianity.
MedievlMn So..SirSancity...think
you've found the catch-22 to do us all in? You kill us and we stand around
forgiving all of you in stereo?
SaintSoul well, Sanctity, I am in agreement
with MM.
MedievlMn hehe..
SaintSoul MM has taught me a thing or two about a
thing or two =)
MedievlMn same old trite
worn-out-at-the-elbows stuff from the haters..
MedievlMn their naivity is
mind-reeling
SaintSoul MM - indeed.... an image unto the beast.
MedievlMn naivnot nativity..
MedievlMn naiviteman
SaintSoul nativity in naivety
SaintSoul =)
SaintSoul sounds like a cool name for a song
Klark-K .'z~diversify~z'.
MedievlMn naivete
SaintSoul but too much like Ozzy's "Nativity In
Black"
MedievlMn creche
Sanctity If your views and motivations
differ from Christ's, then you're not a Christian.
MedievlMn they don't
MedievlMn yours does.
SaintSoul "Rebuke a wise man and he shall love
thee; rebuke a fool and yet thou must do it again." =)
Sanctity I haven't stated any.
MedievlMn this is the same old
*crap*...non-Christians think they have some loophole to persecute Christians
without response...and we have to bleat forgivenesses all the while..
* SaintSoul cranx up Blind Guardian - Into The Storm
MedievlMn sorry
MedievlMn you misread Holy Writ..
MedievlMn no loophole..
Klark-K i somehow believe MedievlMn
is right
MedievlMn no free pass to do evil..
SaintSoul Klark - somehow.... =) lol
MedievlMn no automatic persimmuion to
persecute without response..
MedievlMn persimmon?
MedievlMn permission
Sanctity That is so. They threw Christians
to the lions and they persecuted them in other ways, and the Christians forgave
them for it.
MedievlMn no catch-22..
Dove-Cat no summer sun...
Sanctity Just as Christ on the Cross
forgave his persecutors.
Dove-Cat (can't get that Stevie Wonder song out of
my head now)
MedievlMn all this is lamer
Christian-hating crapola manufactured at countless hate websites.
MedievlMn ah, the lions routine..
Klark-K Jesus was not perfect. if you recall. he
justified his actions... not in words but by observing ans standing up for what
was right.
Klark-K ans = and
SaintSoul Jesus wasn't perfect?
SaintSoul hmmmm
MedievlMn sic a lion on me, and, if I
have an elephant gun, I save myself..
SaintSoul hehe, sic a lion on me... and God will
bind his mouth =)
Klark-K go read your bible SaintSoul.
MedievlMn if theguy sics another lion
on me, I shoot both the lion and him.
SaintSoul Klark - Over and over, Paul said Christ
is perfect.
MedievlMn and I forgive him
posthumously
SaintSoul Christ was perfect, without blemish.
SaintSoul MM - do you think Jesus was perfect, or
flawed?
MedievlMn You think Christ was
against self-protection?
* SaintSoul KNOWS He is perfect, and nothing you say is gonna
change what I know.
MedievlMn you do not know any
scripture except the loophole attempts.
SaintSoul well personally I prefer the Power of God
alone as He demonstrated to Daniel.
MedievlMn the 12 disciples carried
not one but 2 swords, with Christ's explicit command, around with them.
SaintSoul Who here besides me knows Jesus is
perfect?
MedievlMn Christ, in the garden of Gethsemene,
told the soldiers and high priests what WOULD have happened to them if the
"cup" had BEEN withdrawn from him,..
MedievlMn they would have been
slaughtered by 12 legions of warrior angels.
MedievlMn this is Christ, the
pacifist?...making this implicit threat?
MedievlMn no
MedievlMn Christians may be called to
forgiveness, but they are also called to self-defense, combatting evil people,
and resisting persecution.
MedievlMn there is no model for the
"do anything to me and I'll stand here and bleed while forgiving you like
a stupid sheep" in the Scriptures.
MedievlMn therefore, abandon all
hope of persecuting Christians and just being blandly forgiven in the bargain..
MedievlMn we'll fight back,..and
forgive you simultaneously.
MedievlMn no free pass to do evil
MedievlMn no loophole of meek
forgiveness without proper resonse..
MedievlMn no catch 22
MedievlMn This is the way this man
shoots them as he wanders about his estste, pondering his empire of commerce,
and penning romance novellas that would make Fabio puke.
* MedievlMn has left #Theology
* You were kicked from #Theology by Dove-Cat (Dove-Cat_)
Session Close: Tue May 27 19:46:23 2003
I am interested in "Mental Modelling", which I consider to be the highest function of intelligence. It's as close to reality as we can get. A Mental Model is a clear, consistent and complete entity in the mind, which reflects reality. The individual understands it and can explain it in clear concise terms. It can be interrogated to explain real phenomena and to provide answers which are useful and predictive in the light of truth or fact.An individual who has a good set of Mental Models is well equipped to deal withlife. Such individuals construct their Mental Models from first principles.
For example a physicist and mathematician can recreate formulae that he has forgotten. He can explain real world events and predict them accurately. The reason is that he has a Mental Model of the physical world. Scientists don’t tend to rely on beliefs and are much less likely to be religious. Even if they do have beliefs, they don’t tend to use them to describe phenomena that can be described in physical terms.
On a lower level, there is the adoption of a belief system, a set of rules to live by. If these rules are sensible, as they might be if provided by organised religions or other well-planned belief systems, they are a help to the believer if the only alternative is chaos. Beliefs and rules are essential to this kind of existence. The problem is that many situations are not covered by the rules; also there is some difficulty in deciding how the rules should be applied.
On the lowest intellectual level there is what might be termed a vocal animalism, where there are no real rules and the individual lives for the moment without regard to any higher model of conduct. This works too, for example, it works for all other animals.
Intellectuals who have well defined Mental Models have problems
communicating with people lower in intellectual order. In fact the intellectual is at a disadvantage in argument, because he can only reply by interrogating his Mental Models, whereas his opponent has no higher purpose to serve and can be entirely arbitrary in his interpretation of rules and self-serving in his utterances. Only the intellectual has insight.
An individual without a Mental Model is unable to give a straight answer to a straight question.
SirOracle is Sanctity the channel is #theology
* Mike_c has joined #theology
Mike_c i am an intelligent Christian searching for
debate
Sanctity Do you believe that Mary and
Martha the sisters of Lazarus, were the plural wives of Christ?
(Editor’s Note: Mormons are Christians and these are
some of their less publicised beliefs)
Sanctity It's a valid Christian view. This
channel is called #theology
Mike_c Sanctity, please preface your
statements to me with "mike", i am doing other things
DivineOb Sanctity`: where do you get that
idea from?
Sanctity mike: do you believe that Mary and
Martha the sisters of Lazarus, were the plural wives of Christ?
DivineOb are there verses which lend evidence to
that?
Mike_c Sanctity, i dont think Jesus had any
wives.
Sanctity mike: a lot of people believe that
he did, and they're all Christians
Mike_c Sanctity. ok. i dont.
Sanctity mike: do you believe that Lucifer
was the brother of Jesus?
Mike_c Sanctity, no. lucifer was around
long before jesus was born
Sanctity mike: again, a lot of people believe
that Lucifer and Jesus were brothers, and again, they're Christians.
Mike_c Sanctity, a lot of people believe in profesional
wrestling too.
Sanctity mike|: is professional wresting
your religion?
Mike_c Sanctity, no, but the fact that a lot
people believe in something is not relevant to anything.
Sanctity mike: what is relevant then? Do
you think your religion is right, and these other religions are wrong?
Mike_c sancity, no. i dont think there is any red
tape with respect to God. as long as you are a good on earth, you will get to
heaven, irrespective of your religion
Sanctity Mike: if, as you said, people's
beliefs are not relevant, then you also agree that your belief is not relevant
either?
Mike_c sanc, they are relevant to me
Sanctity mike: but the God that these
other people believe in, and their way of life, is equally relevant to them.
Mike_c Sanctity, thats fine.
Sanctity mike: so you believe then that
there is a separate God for everyone who has beliefs, and the God you believe
in just belongs to you?
Mike_c no, i believe there is one God Sanctity,
and different people can reach him in differeng ways
* MedievlMn has joined #Theology
Sanctity mike: but, if Jesus did have
plural wives, as some Christians believe, that's a fundamental difference. Can
God be reached by those who have plural wives?
Mike_c i dont know
* Dove-Cat sets mode: +o MedievlMn
MedievlMn Why necessarily speculate
that Jesus had any wives. There is no prooftext.
Sanctity Here I must mention that this
channel is called #theology, not #my-specific-brand-of-religion
Mike_c sancity, fine.
Sanctity Many Christians believe that Jesus
was married to both Mary and Martha, the sisters of Lazarus, and to Mary
Magdalene.
MedievlMn Why?
Sanctity And that he also had other wives.
Sanctity I don't know why.
Dove-Cat Many Christians--supported by what
Dove-Cat perhaps the qualifier should read
"some"
MedievlMn Let's see...any spare women
that happen to be around,..are default wives for Jesus? Why?
Sanctity As I said, I don't know why.
Dove-Cat So this is just a statement you chose to
make...
MedievlMn Neither do the "many
Christians" which I suspect are few and confused.
MedievlMn The attempt to wive Jesus
has the same age-old motivation as other similar ruses..
Sanctity This channel is called #theology.
The topic we're discussing is theology.
MedievlMn the end is to un-deify
Jesus and make Him a mere man. human only, with no claim to deity.
MedievlMn These things are all theoilogical
in nature...
MedievlMn the theological subj. we
are currently discussing is called Christology in the theology books.
MedievlMn Christology is the subj.
and study of the person of Christ, incl. whether or not He had wives, of which
there is no indication wahtsoever, unless you count that He was in the same
vicinity as other women on occasion.
Sanctity If Christ plays the major role in
a people's beliefs, then they are Christians
MedievlMn I do not count proxemity as
proof that Jesus was married to women.
Sanctity Does proof have anything to do
with what you believe?
MedievlMn Without faith it is
impossible to please God.
MedievlMn Belief doesn't come by
proof, but the power of Scripture..
MedievlMn faith comes by hearing the
word of God.
Sanctity Faith and proof are different
things. Mark Twain said "Faith is believing what you know, ain't
so".
MedievlMn Your point is obscure. Do
you have an accusation to make?
MedievlMn What's your beef, in other
words.
MedievlMn specify.
Sanctity Accusations aren't my style. I
have no beefs.
* Mike_c has left #Theology
MedievlMnSanctity
Does proof have anything to do with what you believe?
MedievlMn what did this question
mean? It is syntaxically, uh, challenged
Sanctity I'll express it differently.
DivineOb no it isn't
MedievlMn ah..
MedievlMn thanks]
Sanctity Does what you believe depend on
proof?
MedievlMn So your accusation, which
are ordinarily not your style, is that I demand scioentific or empirical proof
for all of my tenets of faith?
Sanctity Or does it depend on faith?
Sanctity There is no accusation
MedievlMn is that your..implication?
MedievlMn There is no proof of the
spiritual realm..
Sanctity There is no implication. Just
answer the question. It's easy enough.
MedievlMn God has so ordered it that
it is beyond the discovery of humankind by scientific analysis..
MedievlMn Therefore, if I wait for
hard proof of the spiritual realm, I wait forever
MedievlMn There are, however, reasons
to trust scripture based on good evidence that they are ancient, authoratative,
archeologically correct, etc..
MedievlMn but that doesn't constitute
a leap of faith.
MedievlMn I belief because God has
enlightened me and given me the ability to understand spiritual things..
Sanctity So your answer is, to make sure I
understand you, that your belief does not depend on proof, and moreover God has
arranged things such that proof is impossible?
MedievlMn I believe
MedievlMn certain proofs.
MedievlMn there are diff. kinds of proofs..those
associated with God and those not.
MedievlMn If someone sets out to
prove God exists by syllogiostic logic, he fails.
Sanctity What is your attitude to those
people who believe entirely different things, which are based on exactly the
same sources?
MedievlMn If he sets out to prove God
exiwsts by heeding the proofs of Scripture and the proofs of the enlightenment
of the Spirit, he succeeds.
MedievlMn I leave all of that for God
to sort out, as He will also sort me out, and you.
Sanctity If your belief is valid, then are
the beliefs of others, which are different, invalid?
Sanctity Simple question
MedievlMn I do not participate in
arguing issues of exclusivity,..
MedievlMn what does it matter?
MedievlMn Are you hoping just to be
offended by my stance?
MedievlMn Does exclusivity offend
you?
MedievlMn I can neither advance nor
deter anyone from salvation.
Sanctity Of course not. You're a
Christian, and full of tolerance and forgiveness.
MedievlMn I have no say in the
eternal destiny of others.
MedievlMn ah..
Sanctity If I offended you, you would
forgive me and offer the other cheek
MedievlMn I see now
MedievlMn your accusation, as I see
the sarcasm, is that Christians have some exclusive franchise on intolerance
that has magically skipped ovber everyone else?
MedievlMn untrue
MedievlMn we do no sin to exclusion.
Sanctity The word "faith" is
interesting. If it forms the basis of your beliefs, what does it mean?
MedievlMn we are all in the same
human boat
MedievlMn there is no escape from
hypocrisy and intolerance, and non-Christians have mined these sins as well as
Christians..
Sanctity Never mind about that, then.
Sanctity What do you mean by
"faith"?
MedievlMn read the Biblical def. it
does better than i could:Heb. 11:1
MedievlMn I believe because I fail in
any attempt to disbelieve.
* BlueFang has joined #theology
Dove-Cat Morning Blue
MedievlMn The same can be said about
unicorns. Idon't believe because I fail to believe.
BlueFang evenin' Dove
Sanctity When translating the Bible, the
word faith was given a different meaning than it had in the original texts.
(Editor’s Note: it originally meant trust and loyalty)
DivineOb what I think is funny is how christians
want to put christians and nonchristians on the same level
DivineOb but, of course, christians ought to be
judged by a much higher standard
Sanctity That's why I'm asking you what you
mean by "faith".
MedievlMn and,..by the way,..where is
your absurd running diatribe today..that bad writing you like to foist on all
of us, in the confused belief that we are hanging on every ill-conceived word?
DivineOb is Sanctity` SirOracle?
Sanctity What does "faith" mean?
MedievlMn I suggest remedial creative
writing, perhaps night school.
DivineOb or were you talking to me?
Sanctity This is #theology. This is a
theological discussion between Christians
MedievlMn And,..you might want to
look up this definition: redundancy.
Sanctity I have no criticisms of you nor of
what you believe. You can say anything you please about me or about anybody
else.
MedievlMn I think I just did.
MedievlMn and,..you are less than
candid about not having any criticisms of my faith. I think you have many.
Sanctity What do you mean by
"faith"? If it is what your beliefs are founded on, then you should
be able to explain it. That is what missionaries and evangelists do.
MedievlMn Hmmm.
MedievlMn a more sincere inquiry I
have seldom received.
MedievlMn I think I'll pass...
Sanctity Take a moment to think about it.
MedievlMn I don't have to think about
it, I am full of the subject, not unlike you being full of B-grade journal
entries.
MedievlMn however..
MedievlMn I am unmotivated to broach
the subj. here..
* BlueFang has left #Theology
MedievlMn I have a crisis of uninterest.
MedievlMn so..ask the folk in #poetry
Sanctity Christ said that you must forgive
those who sin against you, for your own sins to be forgiven.
Sanctity Do you believe that?
MedievlMn do you ask forgiveness?
MedievlMn sincerely, of me?
Sanctity I'm asking you.
SaintSoul hmm
SaintSoul kinda glad I haven't been here for this
one.. heh
SaintSoul hiya MM
SaintSoul =)
Sanctity Well, let's take it as read. As
you're a Christian, you must believe it.
MedievlMn I forgive you. Still, no
debate with you on this subj. at this time will be forthcoming.
Sanctity If you forgive then there is an immediate
benefit.
MedievlMn My ans. is: the def. of
faith is in Heb. 11:1
SaintSoul =)
Sanctity But you have to forgive truly and
unconditionally.
MedievlMn there is no better answer
than to invoke Holy Writ. I rest in that answer.
Sanctity The benefit is that the offence
that you have forgiven no longer has any effect of your conduct.
SaintSoul How about "Those who have little to
be forgiven them.... have little to love in Heaven"
SaintSoul =)
Sanctity This is called Christianity
MedievlMn Are you seeking, like, a
free pass for future offenses?
SaintSoul MM - u talkin to me?
MedievlMn no
SaintSoul ok
MedievlMn Many times, forgiveness is mislabeled
as license.
SaintSoul God is Merciful =)
MedievlMn those seeking it are
looking for a way around future responsibilities.
MedievlMn and freedom from
restitution for past offenses.
MedievlMn it's rather a selfish def.
of forgiveness..
SaintSoul well... I dun have the power to forgive
sins..... but I can forgive others. =)
MedievlMn it's really more of a maneuver..
MedievlMn to escape responsibility
SaintSoul Jesus roolz, satan droolz =p
MedievlMn "Forgive me,
Christian, I punched you out! Oh forgive me again, I did it again! Hey, this
forgiveness stuff is fun!"
SaintSoul lol
SaintSoul Noone said it's easy to forgive..... especially
when a great wrong has been done to you.... grudges are hard to let go.. and
virtually impossible without Jesus
SaintSoul Those who do not love are not of God, for
God is Love. Whosoever hateth his brother has not the love of God in him.
SaintSoul and so on and so forth et cetera et
cetera ad infinitum. =)
SaintSoul powa-preachinz
MedievlMn Forgiveness must be granted
when the petitioner is sincere and repentent...if the petitioner is merely posing..and
the act of asking for forgiveness is a cynical ploy to do more evil, then the
petitioner becomes persecutor...this is not a vehicle for proper forgiveness.
Sanctity That was not what Christ said.
MedievlMn post the reference.
MedievlMn the seventy times sevemty
rule of forgiveness, presupposes that the petitioner is sincere.
MedievlMn always, sincerity is the
rule of forgiveness, on both sides of the forgiving.
MedievlMn not mere asking
SaintSoul yeah
Sanctity “I say unto you, Love your
enemies, bless them that curse
Sanctity you, do good to them that hate
you, and pray for them which
Sanctity despitefully use you, and
persecute you”
Sanctity Are you clear now?
SaintSoul heheh..... that's one of my very fav
verses Sanctity
* SaintSoul doesn't see what yer debating tho
SaintSoul you gotta be sincere because God knows
your heart.... why would an insincere person even come to God for forgiveness?
MedievlMn That verse falls more often
from the lips of those who hate Christians, and look to gain an advantage by
reminding Chriswtians that no matter the dispicable acts done to them, they
must stand sheeplike around and take it and more..
Sanctity I'm posting the reference that MedievlMn
asked me to post.
SaintSoul You can't use God's abundant mercy as an
excuse (or license) to continue sinning.
MedievlMn ironic that those who most
quote this verse, hate the Scriptures in general..but see this verse as a
chance to pacify Christians from any response
Sanctity Did Christ say that, or not?
SaintSoul MM - Those are truly pathetic individuals
who have not the love of God in them.
MedievlMn In fact, this verse is
taken seriously by Christians and put into faith and practice, along with other
verses that say to resist evil, and NOT be sheep who merely stand around
waiting for the slaughter.
Sanctity What do you mean by faith?
MedievlMn I pray for my enemies, both
percewived and proven...always..
SaintSoul But even as those who hate God and the
Word would use that to manipulate Christians.... we must be obedient disciples
of Christ and take no revenge, but pray for them.
MedievlMn by doing so, I pray for
myself.
SaintSoul "Father forgive them, for they know
not what they do."
Sanctity SaintSoul, nobody is crucifying
you.
MedievlMn But still, in the act of
ASKING for forgivenss, which the above text doesn't include,..
MedievlMn sincerity is necessary in
the petitioner.
SaintSoul "No man can redeem his
brother."
SaintSoul I agree with you, MM
MedievlMn We are speaking of those
who ask for forgiveness.
MedievlMn not in our attitudes in
general toward those who persecute us while NOT seeking forgiveness.
Sanctity There has been no reference here
to asking for forgiveness, nor did Christ say anything about the subject.
MedievlMn they are separate
considerations.
SaintSoul ok.
SaintSoul Well because when we are guilty we are so
before God..... I would think asking forgiveness from Him would be similar to
simply praying..... not to make a public scene, or doing so
half-heartedly......
MedievlMn Oh yes, Christ gave a very
specific formular for asking for forgiveness, and also for accusing another of
sin in order to prod them into asking for forgiveness.
MedievlMn formula
MedievlMn read Matt. 18
MedievlMn Christ had much to say
about personal forgiveness between two people at odds.
MedievlMn The irq, by the way, is not
a good model for much of this.
Sanctity He said "First be reconciled
with thy brother, then come to the altar and offer thy gift".
MedievlMn There is so much artifice,
so many poseurs..
MedievlMn one can never be sure of
reality.
MedievlMn in that lack of clarity
about what is real and what isn't...
Sanctity Only God can forgive you, as I
understand the Christian religion.
MedievlMn Biblica mandates regarding
seeking of forgiveness and the seeking of admissions of guilt to enact forgiveness,
are altered.
MedievlMn God forgives in the
eternal, condemnatory sense..
MedievlMn but people forgive one
another daily..as instructed by scripture
Sanctity Let me rephrase that, because I
speak English english, which might not be clear to you.
MedievlMn good one.
MedievlMn a hearty laught here.
MedievlMn laugh
SaintSoul hrm
SaintSoul =)
MedievlMn That you say that amid your
fractured syntax..
Sanctity In Christianity, to the best of my
understanding, only God can forgive your sins.
MedievlMn I love it.
* Klark-K has joined #Theology
MedievlMn in the eternal sense, yes
Klark-K good evening all (:
MedievlMn on earth, people forgive
one another their transgressions on an earthly plane..read the Lord's prayer.
Sanctity Christianity requires that you
forgive the sins of others, unconditionally.
MedievlMn not so
SaintSoul Forgiveness is God's ultimately, but yes,
the Lord's prayer reconciles us to forgive each other
MedievlMn I saw long ago that you
were after that vague and universal idea..
MedievlMn haters of CVhristians love
to advance that thought..
MedievlMn it's usually a ploy to do
more evil.
Sanctity Explain what you mean. I only
have the words of Christ to go by.
SaintSoul "Whosoever shall sin against the son
of man shall be forgiven, but whosoever shall sin against the holy ghost is in
danger of everlasting hellfire" right?
Sanctity Is that Christ speaking?
MedievlMn Thoe who hate Christians
the most, yammer about Christians needing to forgive all constantly..
MedievlMn seems a little cynical and
manipulative, eh?
SaintSoul Yes... those who hate Christians have
Satan working through them to twist the Word of God against us.
MedievlMn The worst lamers who hate
the existence of Christians, never fail to have the "You gotta forgive me
no matter what" routine in their mouths along with the hatred and bigotry.
MedievlMn It's a hoot.
SaintSoul It's sad.
SaintSoul But..... once they've received His
Gospel, if they continue in their denial, we are to shake the dust from our
feet and depart =)
MedievlMn It's possibly the clearest
syndrome on the irq..
SaintSoul It's not our duty to MAKE them right...
we're doing His Work as long as we try. =)
SaintSoul what's IRQ?
Sanctity The words of Christ, as reported
in the Bible, are the basis of Christianity.
MedievlMn "here, let me kick you
in the groin! ..now you gotta forgive me..here, let me do it again...okay gimme
the forgiveness, you scummy Christian...here's another one..forgive me, $#@!! it!"
SaintSoul Yeah
SaintSoul Those who have not the love of God in them
become obvious rather quickly.
Sanctity That is what Christ said. He said
it on the Cross
MedievlMn There is no absolution form
Christians for continued evil.
MedievlMn from
MedievlMn there is no formula that Christians
are required to follow to aid and abet evil against them.
MedievlMn Forgiveness may be inner
and personal and doesn't preclude self-defense and retaliation within
Scriptural dictates.
SaintSoul It is wrong for us to continue to allow
ourselves to be sinned against and abused, simply because an anti-Christ
loophole in the Word.
SaintSoul Satan will use any thing he can against
us.
Sanctity SainSoul just repeated Christ's
words. If you have a different opinion, then whatever it is, it isn't
Christianity.
MedievlMn So..SirSancity...think
you've found the catch-22 to do us all in? You kill us and we stand around
forgiving all of you in stereo?
SaintSoul well, Sanctity, I am in agreement
with MM.
MedievlMn hehe..
SaintSoul MM has taught me a thing or two about a
thing or two =)
MedievlMn same old trite
worn-out-at-the-elbows stuff from the haters..
MedievlMn their naivity is
mind-reeling
SaintSoul MM - indeed.... an image unto the beast.
MedievlMn naivnot nativity..
MedievlMn naiviteman
SaintSoul nativity in naivety
SaintSoul =)
SaintSoul sounds like a cool name for a song
Klark-K .'z~diversify~z'.
MedievlMn naivete
SaintSoul but too much like Ozzy's "Nativity In
Black"
MedievlMn creche
Sanctity If your views and motivations
differ from Christ's, then you're not a Christian.
MedievlMn they don't
MedievlMn yours does.
SaintSoul "Rebuke a wise man and he shall love
thee; rebuke a fool and yet thou must do it again." =)
Sanctity I haven't stated any.
MedievlMn this is the same old
*crap*...non-Christians think they have some loophole to persecute Christians
without response...and we have to bleat forgivenesses all the while..
* SaintSoul cranx up Blind Guardian - Into The Storm
MedievlMn sorry
MedievlMn you misread Holy Writ..
MedievlMn no loophole..
Klark-K i somehow believe MedievlMn
is right
MedievlMn no free pass to do evil..
SaintSoul Klark - somehow.... =) lol
MedievlMn no automatic persimmuion to
persecute without response..
MedievlMn persimmon?
MedievlMn permission
Sanctity That is so. They threw Christians
to the lions and they persecuted them in other ways, and the Christians forgave
them for it.
MedievlMn no catch-22..
Dove-Cat no summer sun...
Sanctity Just as Christ on the Cross
forgave his persecutors.
Dove-Cat (can't get that Stevie Wonder song out of
my head now)
MedievlMn all this is lamer
Christian-hating crapola manufactured at countless hate websites.
MedievlMn ah, the lions routine..
Klark-K Jesus was not perfect. if you recall. he
justified his actions... not in words but by observing ans standing up for what
was right.
Klark-K ans = and
SaintSoul Jesus wasn't perfect?
SaintSoul hmmmm
MedievlMn sic a lion on me, and, if I
have an elephant gun, I save myself..
SaintSoul hehe, sic a lion on me... and God will
bind his mouth =)
Klark-K go read your bible SaintSoul.
MedievlMn if theguy sics another lion
on me, I shoot both the lion and him.
SaintSoul Klark - Over and over, Paul said Christ
is perfect.
MedievlMn and I forgive him
posthumously
SaintSoul Christ was perfect, without blemish.
SaintSoul MM - do you think Jesus was perfect, or
flawed?
MedievlMn You think Christ was
against self-protection?
* SaintSoul KNOWS He is perfect, and nothing you say is gonna
change what I know.
MedievlMn you do not know any
scripture except the loophole attempts.
SaintSoul well personally I prefer the Power of God
alone as He demonstrated to Daniel.
MedievlMn the 12 disciples carried
not one but 2 swords, with Christ's explicit command, around with them.
SaintSoul Who here besides me knows Jesus is
perfect?
MedievlMn Christ, in the garden of Gethsemene,
told the soldiers and high priests what WOULD have happened to them if the
"cup" had BEEN withdrawn from him,..
MedievlMn they would have been
slaughtered by 12 legions of warrior angels.
MedievlMn this is Christ, the
pacifist?...making this implicit threat?
MedievlMn no
MedievlMn Christians may be called to
forgiveness, but they are also called to self-defense, combatting evil people,
and resisting persecution.
MedievlMn there is no model for the
"do anything to me and I'll stand here and bleed while forgiving you like
a stupid sheep" in the Scriptures.
MedievlMn therefore, abandon all
hope of persecuting Christians and just being blandly forgiven in the bargain..
MedievlMn we'll fight back,..and
forgive you simultaneously.
MedievlMn no free pass to do evil
MedievlMn no loophole of meek
forgiveness without proper resonse..
MedievlMn no catch 22
MedievlMn This is the way this man
shoots them as he wanders about his estste, pondering his empire of commerce,
and penning romance novellas that would make Fabio puke.
* MedievlMn has left #Theology
* You were kicked from #Theology by Dove-Cat (Dove-Cat_)
Session Close: Tue May 27 19:46:23 2003
posted by MacHeath at 10:18 PM
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