In Which MedievlMn smites SirOracle Hip and Thigh
Session Start: Wed Jul 09 23:43:24 2003
MedievlMn Up to your pesky ways, eh?
SirOracle Didn't you agree?
MedievlMn With what?
SirOracle With what I just said.
MedievlMn Sorry, I see no entries in #Theology, if you refer to that room.
SirOracle Why are you polling me then?
MedievlMn I see you entered and re-entered #Theology. Obsessed are you?
SirOracle I just posted the following in #theology
SirOracle 23:37] * Now talking in #Theology
SirOracle [23:39] SirOracle Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief he will be satisfied with bad ones.
SirOracle [23:41] * You were kicked from #Theology by Dove-Cat (Dove-Cat)
MedievlMn Who is the arbiter of what is "good" and what is "bad" beliefs within the spiritual realm? or good and bad grounds?who decides?
SirOracle In the context of the remark, the standards of belief referred to are absolute. It's a generalisation.
MedievlMn Is there an accreditation panel somewhere with some authority to decree what grounds are good and what grounds are bad, when it comes to the spiritual realm? I would suppose that one cult would deem that those who belief something apart from their credo, do so on "bad" grounds.
SirOracle It isn't possible to communicate without accepting that words have an absolute meaning, common to all. As defined in the dictionary for example.
MedievlMn Wouldn't the quality of grounds depend on whose ox is being..uh, worshipped?My point is, your quote, if it is a quote, presumes there is some absolute definition to what good and bad grounds are for believing tenest of religious faith.there is notI may believe the Bible to be good grounds for belief.someone else has another Holy book and calls my grounds bad.
SirOracle Yes it is a quotation. Bertrand Russell
MedievlMn ah,..the infamous skeptic.
SirOracle it is from "An Outline of Intellectual Rubbish".
MedievlMn Then all becomes clear: M. Russell did not recognize and "good" grounds for religious belief.any, that isHis idea of good grounds would be scientific proof of God, that is, a God seed grow in a petrie dish. But good grounds and bad grounds for religious belief cannot be chosen exclusively by skeptics.
SirOracle You have a penchant for negative statements.
MedievlMn the reason is simple: no one knows what is in the spiritual realm, not believers nor skeptics. The believers believe something is there, but their knowledge is through a glass darkly. Skeptics do not even have the dark glass to peer through and can say nothing on the subject.I don't waste time listening to people who pontificate on subjects on which they cannot have any knowledge. Skeptics, by definition, cannot have any knowledge about God, so why listen to them on the subject?
SirOracle I would think because of tolerance, open-mindedness, curiosity about why others believe something different from the things that we believe and the overriding knowledge that we are fallible.
MedievlMn Tolerance and open-mindedness are not the sole franchise of the skeptic and anti-religionist.many (of faith) have not bowed the knee to Baal in that regard. There is no earthly transcendence, only agendae.
MedievlMn Has Mensa welcomed you back into the fold, and if not, do you dun them daily as you do us non-improved sort of Christian?Have you offered to improve them, if they will only believe in you?Can you save us all?..with your wealth, social prominence and IQ?
SirOracle I do not understand what you mean by the first three remarks. The others are meaningless because of the presumption of paradigms.
MedievlMn Are they also unable to be "improved" by your glorious presence?
MedievlMn presumption of paradigms?
MedievlMn What I presume about you is exactly what you've told me.Have the mensa people forgiven you and now want your prodigious mind in their midst? I like "presumption of paradigms." can I write that down?
SirOracle Also meaningless. I'm sorry about that. Others people have patterns of behaviour which are motivated by their essential being. It seems to others that they are doing the one-and-only thing that they can do - the same as it seems to ourselves. It is a mistake to believe that they are acting arbitrarily.
MedievlMn how about a pair of parsimonious paradigmatic presumptions?
SirOracle how about considering what I just said?
MedievlMn You bet your assonace I like that (alliteration didn't have the joke intact).What you said was too stilted and tortured to read with any ease.
SirOracle If you can't understand it say so. You get a little hebephrenic when flustered.
MedievlMn Understanding isn't the point. You may think you write with clarity and explicitness...you are wrong. sorry..
SirOracle Other people disagree.
MedievlMn You write with laboriuos prose, seemingly to clean out your cluttered brain from words that never were meant to appear in the same sentance.
SirOracle sentence
MedievlMn How many "others" are there?oh,..are we going back to challenging typos?I thought you wanted to skip all that posing.
SirOracle In the course of my 67 years of life, many - the 'a' is not a typo for the 'e'
MedievlMn right.67?you think 67 is "more than twice my age"? was that banal comment just a veiled insult, meaning to consign me to the ranks of callow youth who cannot spell sentence?
SirOracle Yes. I was one of the original members of Mensa. Yes, from your conduct I would say that 67 was approximately twice your age.
MedievlMn good one.I am beneath you in age and in all earhly lore and knowledge. right?
SirOracle There's no insult intended. Insults are worthless if they are inaccurate anyway.
MedievlMn Yours was. But you haven't answered: has mensa forgiven you and ready to wrap the toga of elitist brainpower back around your neck? Are you a member in good standing in their rooms again?Surely, a superior being such as yourself has found the way to coexist with your fellow super-brains? Are you back in the uh, brain trust?
SirOracle I refer you to what I said before about presumption of paradigms.
MedievlMn ah,.. that clears it up. You clarifier, you.
SirOracle If you rephrase what you said without the inbuilt presumptions of patterns of behaviour, then I can answer.
MedievlMn Oh, I bet you could answer anyway, with a yes or no. now couldn't you?is that a toughie?
SirOracle In a sensible debate there have to be some rules. Begging questions are unanswerable. You can't ask questions such as, "Have you left off beating your wife?"
MedievlMn There worst part about bantering with you, Oracle, is that you have no wit, no elan...if only you would substitute a paradigm or two with a good snappy reposte that would wither me...that I would love,..but no.
SirOracle You don't understand what I say.
MedievlMn You keep saying that.
SirOracle But if you made relevant responses, I would stop saying it.
MedievlMn Do you understand my question: has mensa lifted their ban on you? go ahead...take a shot at that.
MedievlMn try..
MedievlMn why do you resist that question?
MedievlMn It's easy: yes or no.
SirOracle No. I have been perpetually banned since February, last year. I have not done anything in that time that was intended to cause them to unban me.
MedievlMn You are then...unjustly accused, as usual, eh?
SirOracle A clear, definitive sentence. Right?
MedievlMn persecuted again with no basis?
SirOracle No, I am justly accused, that is their standpoint.
MedievlMn gotaa take my constitutional with wife and dashhound..
MedievlMn be back sometime
SirOracle Goodbye, then
interval
MedievlMn You still there?
MedievlMn Tell me: here is a clear question: what do you want? More specifically, what do you want of the mensas and from us in these particular Christian rooms, and of me, who cannot be improved?
MedievlMn What is it...you clamor for, andd, seemingly, cannot achieve?
MedievlMn -d
MedievlMn What is your purpose? What are we lacking? What, as I said, do you want?
MedievlMn Do you want us to die?
MedievlMn Do you want us to accept you wholeheartedly, with all of your pompous blather about wealth and station and IQ?
MedievlMn Do you want us to recant our credo and cleave to yours?
MedievlMn and if so, what is your statement?
MedievlMn Do you want us to ignore you, or befriend you, or merely tolerate you?
MedievlMn What, Sir Oracle of the upperclass, do you want?
MedievlMn Do we even have what you want and seek, and if not, why do you keep returning, in that we are beneath you and non-improveable?
MedievlMn If we indeed do have what you want, then, I for one confess, I don't what it is. What - under heaven - do you want?
SirOracle Sorry I didn't see you there. It's nearly 2am. I'll consider what you say and answer tomorrow.
Session Close:
Session Start:
Session Ident: medievlmn
SirOracle Would you like to do battle with me in private?
MedievlMn what kind of battle?
SirOracle We have differences. I'm willing to defend my views.
MedievlMn Your views are of chasmous disinterest to me...why would I ever want to debate about that?
MedievlMn and..
SirOracle It seems that you are no longer willing to engage me in public. You take flight.
MedievlMn don't kid yourself..
MedievlMn remember..I've seen your prose.
SirOracle I'm not. I've seen you hide
MedievlMn You don't exactly wow me with your rapier wit.
MedievlMn how about now?
MedievlMn Have some withering reposte for me?
SirOracle To which particular defect in your make up do you attribute this lack of appreciation?
MedievlMn you misunderstand my motive for wanting not associate with you.
MedievlMn shall I tell you?
MedievlMn it has nothing to do with any notion on my part that you are a superior wit.
MedievlMn believe me there..
MedievlMn You're just ..well..
MedievlMn not my type.
SirOracle No I don't. You have no knowledge of what I think, until you know what I think.
MedievlMn I don't want to be unnecessarily cruel here..
MedievlMn you just are..
MedievlMn obnoxious..
MedievlMn what can I say..
SirOracle Your cruelty says nothing about me - it speaks volumes about you
MedievlMn I have no friends like you...thankfully..
MedievlMn and I would guess you are as thankful
SirOracle You don't know who I am
SirOracle A small point, but a valid one
MedievlMn why continue to barge in where you are not, shall we say, appreciated for those qualities you think you bring?
MedievlMn we don't see them..why not say "their loss" and move on..
SirOracle You seem to be mistaking the persona for the man.
MedievlMn why continue to press it?
SirOracle This is the man speaking now.
MedievlMn it isn't philosophical differences as much as..personal
SirOracle If you have something to say, say it.
MedievlMn we have no debatable differences,..at least none I care about..
SirOracle I'll stand back. You talk.
MedievlMn we have..
MedievlMn personal conflict.
SirOracle No conflict here
MedievlMn usually people who have these kinds of conflicts avoid one another to both person's benefit.
MedievlMn why do you not do that?
MedievlMn it's curious..
SirOracle Not so.If you have an enemy, then you should have the courage to engage him.
MedievlMn not necessarily..
MedievlMn anyway...
MedievlMn you are not an enemy
SirOracle How else does Good triumph over Evil?
SirOracle Are you about to flee?
MedievlMn you are a nameless, faceless anonymous entity on the IRC that I cannot see anything about except typed words.
MedievlMn I don't like those words./
SirOracle Good
MedievlMn and since you have nothing else for me..
MedievlMn then we have no reason to converse
SirOracle You're taking flight, for fear of what words I might use. Right?
MedievlMn what is this flight stuff?
MedievlMn what flight?
SirOracle You are about to run away
MedievlMn I ban you because you're a gigantic arrogant bore who abuses the policies of the room.
MedievlMn no more
MedievlMn no flight
SirOracle I forgot that you have difficulty with my English english
MedievlMn I understand your fractured and unfortunate syntax.
MedievlMn I see your futile attempts to write procatively..
SirOracle That's better. Now we have some labels.
MedievlMn provocatively
MedievlMn it doesn't sell with me..
MedievlMn that's the whole story
MedievlMn no fear...
MedievlMn of what?
MedievlMn your sophmoric writing?
MedievlMn hardly
SirOracle Have you any more of them that apply to me? You seem to have a big book of labels, that you stick on people indiscriminately.
SirOracle That's only an observation.
MedievlMn and,..I hear that you don't impress the #mensa gang a lot either... you have a tough go of it personality-wise, right?
MedievlMn want a label?
SirOracle What you say is true in part
MedievlMn attention-seeker and misfit come to mind.
SirOracle Any more?
MedievlMn why come back repeatedly to where your act has bombed?
MedievlMn to what purpose?
MedievlMn just nettlesomeness/
MedievlMn that's immature and purile.
SirOracle Do you want me to answer? Will you let me answer?
MedievlMn isn't it time for you to trot out the word "flight"?
SirOracle Or will you run again, if things don't go your way?
MedievlMn ah there it is...
MedievlMn You fool yourself constantly, eh?
MedievlMn that people run from you because they fear your greatness?
SirOracle I'm waiting for your fear to surface.
MedievlMn more, grateness..
MedievlMn Here it is:
MedievlMn You seem to have a collection of hosts...
SirOracle You're nearly through, I think. May I make some observations now?
MedievlMn we've seen the syndrome before..
MedievlMn we will collect them patiently..
MedievlMn as did Mensa
MedievlMn because...
MedievlMn you are an irritating borish one-man gab-a-thon.
MedievlMn no fun..
SirOracle I have to tell you that it hasn't worked for #mensa. Just in case they told you otherwise.
MedievlMn we've seen your routine, and it falls flat on our ears.
SirOracle I know
SirOracle You have said a lot, and I listened. Is it fair that I say something now, and you listen?
MedievlMn well,..evidently, your lot in life is to go somewhere, irritate the holy crap outa people, then nettle them as long as you can in frustration, all the while telling yourself that they "take flight" because you are some uberman...
MedievlMn nah..
MedievlMn sorry..
MedievlMn irritating yes,..witty and provocative, no.
MedievlMn okay..
SirOracle Or are you beyond criticism?
MedievlMn I will cease making entries...
MedievlMn talk away.
SirOracle You own all the labels in your book.
SirOracle I didn't create them.
SirOracle They were in your book of labels before you met me.
SirOracle Similarly, you own your emotions.
SirOracle I didn't cause them.
SirOracle They were inside you, before you met me.
MedievlMn 15(I favor the automatic labeling gun)
SirOracle acknowledge
MedievlMn ...there's more, I hope..Oh, God, let there be more!
SirOracle The way we develop a set of labels to use as weapons is that we make a careful store of all those things that have ever hurt us.
SirOracle The victim turns into the victimiser.
SirOracle acknowledge
MedievlMn un,..SirOracle or whoever you like to be...
MedievlMn look..
SirOracle can't take any more?
MedievlMn I am a musician for a living..
MedievlMn I have a wife and a dachshund..
MedievlMn I have nice friends..
MedievlMn I go to the opera, and eat good food..
MedievlMn why..do I have to be a bad person, just because you're sort of unlikeable?
MedievlMn why not..
MedievlMn Live and Let Live..
MedievlMn I'm sure you must have your moments..
SirOracle I'm a professional writer and a multi-millionaire, among other things. We might find we have a more in common that you thought.
MedievlMn you may even have as fine a gaggle of friends as I do..
SirOracle Will you let me continue?
MedievlMn and eat as good food..
MedievlMn but why do I have to be a , what is it,.."labeler" just because you're not my cup of tea?
MedievlMn That happens.
SirOracle The change in tone won't save you from your come-uppance, if that's what you think
MedievlMn and what, pray tell, is my comeuppance?
MedievlMn why do I have to have any punishment? I haven't done anything wrong.
MedievlMn I don't like the way you come communicate...that isn't a sin, but a preference..
MedievlMn what are you, some inquisitor that gives people demerits fro failing to take you?
MedievlMn There is no sin here...not on either side,..unless, of course, you want to engage in some religious bigotry..
MedievlMn which I've seen you edge upon..
MedievlMn but otherwise..
MedievlMn my not cottening to you, as per your faceless words on irc..is no sin.
MedievlMn Tjhere is no comeuppance for chosing your friends and correspondents as you please.
MedievlMn what is this judgement fixation you have?
MedievlMn I say again: Live and Let Live.
SirOracle You'll get no punishment from me
MedievlMn spend your millions, and write the great American novel, if you wish...you still suffer badly in translation to me.
MedievlMn that's the whole story...I don't try to diminsh your selfw worth...I just am not a candidate for your inner circle,..that I can see.
MedievlMn why fight that?
SirOracle It's you that you have to live with. I'll be gone soon.
MedievlMn I will attempt to muddle on.
MedievlMn impoverished as you have convinced yourself I'll be.
SirOracle I suggest that you examine your book of labels and see if they really apply.
MedievlMn this threat to "be gone soon"...this isn't some flight-taking, is it?
MedievlMn labels, schmbels..
SirOracle And develop enough insight to see to whom they really apply
MedievlMn you talk too much..no label can save you.
SirOracle You use them. You must set some store by them.
MedievlMn Hooboy, you are bundle of self doubt.
SirOracle I haven't used even one label since we started this little tete-a-tete.
MedievlMn well,..you imply one:
MedievlMn you call me a..
MedievlMn labeler.
MedievlMn ooo that hurts.
SirOracle That is an observation. It's impossible to converse without defining concepts.
MedievlMn I'mn gonna guess out loud here..
MedievlMn if you really are wealthy,..
SirOracle It matters little.
MedievlMn I submit you have not succeeded in buying what you seem to need.
SirOracle I have everything I need, if money can buy it. I find I don't need much.
MedievlMn you have a difficult time fitting in, finding your niche, at least with the written word to strangers, which is always chancey.
SirOracle You are taking certain motives for granted. Let me answer.
MedievlMn whatever you are searching for, it can't be purchased, evidently... or you'd have little time to develop irritating people mightily to an exact science.
MedievlMn why do you do that?
SirOracle Your statement makes certain assumptions. a) that I want to fit in b) I want to fit in a niche c) my words are written with certain assumed motives
MedievlMn with all that money, and all that, uh...talent.
SirOracle Now that's your first relevant question.
MedievlMn I use "talent" advisedly, having been unaware of it thus far, but I'm willing to admit you could be hiding it or, as I say, you suffer greatly in the transmission.
SirOracle And it is based on observation.
SirOracle It might be that what I am doing is effective, but in a way that is foreign to you, and which you would not care to admit.
MedievlMn Do you derive some perverse pleasure out of making a nuisance of yourself?
SirOracle yes
MedievlMn why on earth would that be an advanced calling to you?
MedievlMn It isn't, you know.
SirOracle I'd challenge "perverse".
MedievlMn sorry..
SirOracle Have you read "Gulliver's Travels"?
MedievlMn don't worry..if you do enjoy being a nuisance, any pleasure that arises is perverse.
SirOracle They are your labels
MedievlMn Of course,..and the nuisance you create is more Brodingnagian than Lilliputian.
MedievlMn it's not a calling, it's a sentence.
MedievlMn Brog..
SirOracle Dean Swift wrote Gulliver's Travels for one reason "To vex the world".Would you call that perverse pleasure?
MedievlMn my fault
MedievlMn I would say the object of vexing the world didn't actually do that...
MedievlMn you, however, have good success.
MedievlMn a book about fantastic adventures doesn't vex the world to a pain.
SirOracle He did at the time, because the people he was lampooning were identifiable.
MedievlMn If that is vexing, it is the good side of the force.
MedievlMn perhaps Swift was condemnatory, and the people he was lampooning were better than he was.
SirOracle I'll tell you how it works, if you like.
MedievlMn you never know
MedievlMn arrogance is humankind's most alluring sin.
SirOracle His work survives to delight is all, and theirs doesn't
SirOracle us all
MedievlMn you for example: do you see yourself as more illuminated, more enlightened, more transcendent than most?
SirOracle no. I'm no Dean Swift
MedievlMn are you above the unwashed of the world?
SirOracle I can't extract any meaning from the question. I'm one of them
MedievlMn how elitist are you in your opinion of others vs. yourself?
SirOracle Not in any way, I hope. Obviously I know what qualities I possess, and what I lack.
MedievlMn are we all out here, beneath you and your millions and your supposed writing talents?
MedievlMn are we to be pitied for being dense, labelers, obtuse, unseeing?
SirOracle I didn't say I had talents. That's for others, like you, to say
SirOracle Or deny, as the case may be
MedievlMn well,..time to take flight...the convo is dragging a bit...2:43 here EST.
SirOracle We getting to the interesting bit
MedievlMn as Monty Python says: Run Away!
SirOracle Let me tell you in three sentences, now you're here.
MedievlMn okay
MedievlMn 3 sentences..
MedievlMn go
SirOracle When a man argues a set of views, or adopts a persona, he might not necessarily hold those views and the persona is often a mask or a pretence.
SirOracle When one listens carefully to what people say, disregarding the content and looking instead to their stance, i.e. their reasons for saying it, then it becomes clear what position they wish to occupy with regard to others - Authority, Parent, Teacher, Holier-than-Thou - or whatever it is.
SirOracle It is instructive or interesting - or maybe perversely pleasurable, depending on one's point of view - to occupy the position that they are trying to take
MedievlMn That last sentence is ..
MedievlMn clarity challenged
SirOracle In fact, to be more like them than they are. Then they are put in the position of arguing with themselves, which affords great amusement, diversion and instruction to those who are given to this furious sport.
SirOracle Now you may go.
MedievlMn may I?
MedievlMn okay..
MedievlMn ...Have a good life...tell your gentleman's gentleman I said hello..
Session Close
MedievlMn Up to your pesky ways, eh?
SirOracle Didn't you agree?
MedievlMn With what?
SirOracle With what I just said.
MedievlMn Sorry, I see no entries in #Theology, if you refer to that room.
SirOracle Why are you polling me then?
MedievlMn I see you entered and re-entered #Theology. Obsessed are you?
SirOracle I just posted the following in #theology
SirOracle 23:37] * Now talking in #Theology
SirOracle [23:39] SirOracle Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief he will be satisfied with bad ones.
SirOracle [23:41] * You were kicked from #Theology by Dove-Cat (Dove-Cat)
MedievlMn Who is the arbiter of what is "good" and what is "bad" beliefs within the spiritual realm? or good and bad grounds?who decides?
SirOracle In the context of the remark, the standards of belief referred to are absolute. It's a generalisation.
MedievlMn Is there an accreditation panel somewhere with some authority to decree what grounds are good and what grounds are bad, when it comes to the spiritual realm? I would suppose that one cult would deem that those who belief something apart from their credo, do so on "bad" grounds.
SirOracle It isn't possible to communicate without accepting that words have an absolute meaning, common to all. As defined in the dictionary for example.
MedievlMn Wouldn't the quality of grounds depend on whose ox is being..uh, worshipped?My point is, your quote, if it is a quote, presumes there is some absolute definition to what good and bad grounds are for believing tenest of religious faith.there is notI may believe the Bible to be good grounds for belief.someone else has another Holy book and calls my grounds bad.
SirOracle Yes it is a quotation. Bertrand Russell
MedievlMn ah,..the infamous skeptic.
SirOracle it is from "An Outline of Intellectual Rubbish".
MedievlMn Then all becomes clear: M. Russell did not recognize and "good" grounds for religious belief.any, that isHis idea of good grounds would be scientific proof of God, that is, a God seed grow in a petrie dish. But good grounds and bad grounds for religious belief cannot be chosen exclusively by skeptics.
SirOracle You have a penchant for negative statements.
MedievlMn the reason is simple: no one knows what is in the spiritual realm, not believers nor skeptics. The believers believe something is there, but their knowledge is through a glass darkly. Skeptics do not even have the dark glass to peer through and can say nothing on the subject.I don't waste time listening to people who pontificate on subjects on which they cannot have any knowledge. Skeptics, by definition, cannot have any knowledge about God, so why listen to them on the subject?
SirOracle I would think because of tolerance, open-mindedness, curiosity about why others believe something different from the things that we believe and the overriding knowledge that we are fallible.
MedievlMn Tolerance and open-mindedness are not the sole franchise of the skeptic and anti-religionist.many (of faith) have not bowed the knee to Baal in that regard. There is no earthly transcendence, only agendae.
MedievlMn Has Mensa welcomed you back into the fold, and if not, do you dun them daily as you do us non-improved sort of Christian?Have you offered to improve them, if they will only believe in you?Can you save us all?..with your wealth, social prominence and IQ?
SirOracle I do not understand what you mean by the first three remarks. The others are meaningless because of the presumption of paradigms.
MedievlMn Are they also unable to be "improved" by your glorious presence?
MedievlMn presumption of paradigms?
MedievlMn What I presume about you is exactly what you've told me.Have the mensa people forgiven you and now want your prodigious mind in their midst? I like "presumption of paradigms." can I write that down?
SirOracle Also meaningless. I'm sorry about that. Others people have patterns of behaviour which are motivated by their essential being. It seems to others that they are doing the one-and-only thing that they can do - the same as it seems to ourselves. It is a mistake to believe that they are acting arbitrarily.
MedievlMn how about a pair of parsimonious paradigmatic presumptions?
SirOracle how about considering what I just said?
MedievlMn You bet your assonace I like that (alliteration didn't have the joke intact).What you said was too stilted and tortured to read with any ease.
SirOracle If you can't understand it say so. You get a little hebephrenic when flustered.
MedievlMn Understanding isn't the point. You may think you write with clarity and explicitness...you are wrong. sorry..
SirOracle Other people disagree.
MedievlMn You write with laboriuos prose, seemingly to clean out your cluttered brain from words that never were meant to appear in the same sentance.
SirOracle sentence
MedievlMn How many "others" are there?oh,..are we going back to challenging typos?I thought you wanted to skip all that posing.
SirOracle In the course of my 67 years of life, many - the 'a' is not a typo for the 'e'
MedievlMn right.67?you think 67 is "more than twice my age"? was that banal comment just a veiled insult, meaning to consign me to the ranks of callow youth who cannot spell sentence?
SirOracle Yes. I was one of the original members of Mensa. Yes, from your conduct I would say that 67 was approximately twice your age.
MedievlMn good one.I am beneath you in age and in all earhly lore and knowledge. right?
SirOracle There's no insult intended. Insults are worthless if they are inaccurate anyway.
MedievlMn Yours was. But you haven't answered: has mensa forgiven you and ready to wrap the toga of elitist brainpower back around your neck? Are you a member in good standing in their rooms again?Surely, a superior being such as yourself has found the way to coexist with your fellow super-brains? Are you back in the uh, brain trust?
SirOracle I refer you to what I said before about presumption of paradigms.
MedievlMn ah,.. that clears it up. You clarifier, you.
SirOracle If you rephrase what you said without the inbuilt presumptions of patterns of behaviour, then I can answer.
MedievlMn Oh, I bet you could answer anyway, with a yes or no. now couldn't you?is that a toughie?
SirOracle In a sensible debate there have to be some rules. Begging questions are unanswerable. You can't ask questions such as, "Have you left off beating your wife?"
MedievlMn There worst part about bantering with you, Oracle, is that you have no wit, no elan...if only you would substitute a paradigm or two with a good snappy reposte that would wither me...that I would love,..but no.
SirOracle You don't understand what I say.
MedievlMn You keep saying that.
SirOracle But if you made relevant responses, I would stop saying it.
MedievlMn Do you understand my question: has mensa lifted their ban on you? go ahead...take a shot at that.
MedievlMn try..
MedievlMn why do you resist that question?
MedievlMn It's easy: yes or no.
SirOracle No. I have been perpetually banned since February, last year. I have not done anything in that time that was intended to cause them to unban me.
MedievlMn You are then...unjustly accused, as usual, eh?
SirOracle A clear, definitive sentence. Right?
MedievlMn persecuted again with no basis?
SirOracle No, I am justly accused, that is their standpoint.
MedievlMn gotaa take my constitutional with wife and dashhound..
MedievlMn be back sometime
SirOracle Goodbye, then
interval
MedievlMn You still there?
MedievlMn Tell me: here is a clear question: what do you want? More specifically, what do you want of the mensas and from us in these particular Christian rooms, and of me, who cannot be improved?
MedievlMn What is it...you clamor for, andd, seemingly, cannot achieve?
MedievlMn -d
MedievlMn What is your purpose? What are we lacking? What, as I said, do you want?
MedievlMn Do you want us to die?
MedievlMn Do you want us to accept you wholeheartedly, with all of your pompous blather about wealth and station and IQ?
MedievlMn Do you want us to recant our credo and cleave to yours?
MedievlMn and if so, what is your statement?
MedievlMn Do you want us to ignore you, or befriend you, or merely tolerate you?
MedievlMn What, Sir Oracle of the upperclass, do you want?
MedievlMn Do we even have what you want and seek, and if not, why do you keep returning, in that we are beneath you and non-improveable?
MedievlMn If we indeed do have what you want, then, I for one confess, I don't what it is. What - under heaven - do you want?
SirOracle Sorry I didn't see you there. It's nearly 2am. I'll consider what you say and answer tomorrow.
Session Close:
Session Start:
Session Ident: medievlmn
SirOracle Would you like to do battle with me in private?
MedievlMn what kind of battle?
SirOracle We have differences. I'm willing to defend my views.
MedievlMn Your views are of chasmous disinterest to me...why would I ever want to debate about that?
MedievlMn and..
SirOracle It seems that you are no longer willing to engage me in public. You take flight.
MedievlMn don't kid yourself..
MedievlMn remember..I've seen your prose.
SirOracle I'm not. I've seen you hide
MedievlMn You don't exactly wow me with your rapier wit.
MedievlMn how about now?
MedievlMn Have some withering reposte for me?
SirOracle To which particular defect in your make up do you attribute this lack of appreciation?
MedievlMn you misunderstand my motive for wanting not associate with you.
MedievlMn shall I tell you?
MedievlMn it has nothing to do with any notion on my part that you are a superior wit.
MedievlMn believe me there..
MedievlMn You're just ..well..
MedievlMn not my type.
SirOracle No I don't. You have no knowledge of what I think, until you know what I think.
MedievlMn I don't want to be unnecessarily cruel here..
MedievlMn you just are..
MedievlMn obnoxious..
MedievlMn what can I say..
SirOracle Your cruelty says nothing about me - it speaks volumes about you
MedievlMn I have no friends like you...thankfully..
MedievlMn and I would guess you are as thankful
SirOracle You don't know who I am
SirOracle A small point, but a valid one
MedievlMn why continue to barge in where you are not, shall we say, appreciated for those qualities you think you bring?
MedievlMn we don't see them..why not say "their loss" and move on..
SirOracle You seem to be mistaking the persona for the man.
MedievlMn why continue to press it?
SirOracle This is the man speaking now.
MedievlMn it isn't philosophical differences as much as..personal
SirOracle If you have something to say, say it.
MedievlMn we have no debatable differences,..at least none I care about..
SirOracle I'll stand back. You talk.
MedievlMn we have..
MedievlMn personal conflict.
SirOracle No conflict here
MedievlMn usually people who have these kinds of conflicts avoid one another to both person's benefit.
MedievlMn why do you not do that?
MedievlMn it's curious..
SirOracle Not so.If you have an enemy, then you should have the courage to engage him.
MedievlMn not necessarily..
MedievlMn anyway...
MedievlMn you are not an enemy
SirOracle How else does Good triumph over Evil?
SirOracle Are you about to flee?
MedievlMn you are a nameless, faceless anonymous entity on the IRC that I cannot see anything about except typed words.
MedievlMn I don't like those words./
SirOracle Good
MedievlMn and since you have nothing else for me..
MedievlMn then we have no reason to converse
SirOracle You're taking flight, for fear of what words I might use. Right?
MedievlMn what is this flight stuff?
MedievlMn what flight?
SirOracle You are about to run away
MedievlMn I ban you because you're a gigantic arrogant bore who abuses the policies of the room.
MedievlMn no more
MedievlMn no flight
SirOracle I forgot that you have difficulty with my English english
MedievlMn I understand your fractured and unfortunate syntax.
MedievlMn I see your futile attempts to write procatively..
SirOracle That's better. Now we have some labels.
MedievlMn provocatively
MedievlMn it doesn't sell with me..
MedievlMn that's the whole story
MedievlMn no fear...
MedievlMn of what?
MedievlMn your sophmoric writing?
MedievlMn hardly
SirOracle Have you any more of them that apply to me? You seem to have a big book of labels, that you stick on people indiscriminately.
SirOracle That's only an observation.
MedievlMn and,..I hear that you don't impress the #mensa gang a lot either... you have a tough go of it personality-wise, right?
MedievlMn want a label?
SirOracle What you say is true in part
MedievlMn attention-seeker and misfit come to mind.
SirOracle Any more?
MedievlMn why come back repeatedly to where your act has bombed?
MedievlMn to what purpose?
MedievlMn just nettlesomeness/
MedievlMn that's immature and purile.
SirOracle Do you want me to answer? Will you let me answer?
MedievlMn isn't it time for you to trot out the word "flight"?
SirOracle Or will you run again, if things don't go your way?
MedievlMn ah there it is...
MedievlMn You fool yourself constantly, eh?
MedievlMn that people run from you because they fear your greatness?
SirOracle I'm waiting for your fear to surface.
MedievlMn more, grateness..
MedievlMn Here it is:
MedievlMn You seem to have a collection of hosts...
SirOracle You're nearly through, I think. May I make some observations now?
MedievlMn we've seen the syndrome before..
MedievlMn we will collect them patiently..
MedievlMn as did Mensa
MedievlMn because...
MedievlMn you are an irritating borish one-man gab-a-thon.
MedievlMn no fun..
SirOracle I have to tell you that it hasn't worked for #mensa. Just in case they told you otherwise.
MedievlMn we've seen your routine, and it falls flat on our ears.
SirOracle I know
SirOracle You have said a lot, and I listened. Is it fair that I say something now, and you listen?
MedievlMn well,..evidently, your lot in life is to go somewhere, irritate the holy crap outa people, then nettle them as long as you can in frustration, all the while telling yourself that they "take flight" because you are some uberman...
MedievlMn nah..
MedievlMn sorry..
MedievlMn irritating yes,..witty and provocative, no.
MedievlMn okay..
SirOracle Or are you beyond criticism?
MedievlMn I will cease making entries...
MedievlMn talk away.
SirOracle You own all the labels in your book.
SirOracle I didn't create them.
SirOracle They were in your book of labels before you met me.
SirOracle Similarly, you own your emotions.
SirOracle I didn't cause them.
SirOracle They were inside you, before you met me.
MedievlMn 15(I favor the automatic labeling gun)
SirOracle acknowledge
MedievlMn ...there's more, I hope..Oh, God, let there be more!
SirOracle The way we develop a set of labels to use as weapons is that we make a careful store of all those things that have ever hurt us.
SirOracle The victim turns into the victimiser.
SirOracle acknowledge
MedievlMn un,..SirOracle or whoever you like to be...
MedievlMn look..
SirOracle can't take any more?
MedievlMn I am a musician for a living..
MedievlMn I have a wife and a dachshund..
MedievlMn I have nice friends..
MedievlMn I go to the opera, and eat good food..
MedievlMn why..do I have to be a bad person, just because you're sort of unlikeable?
MedievlMn why not..
MedievlMn Live and Let Live..
MedievlMn I'm sure you must have your moments..
SirOracle I'm a professional writer and a multi-millionaire, among other things. We might find we have a more in common that you thought.
MedievlMn you may even have as fine a gaggle of friends as I do..
SirOracle Will you let me continue?
MedievlMn and eat as good food..
MedievlMn but why do I have to be a , what is it,.."labeler" just because you're not my cup of tea?
MedievlMn That happens.
SirOracle The change in tone won't save you from your come-uppance, if that's what you think
MedievlMn and what, pray tell, is my comeuppance?
MedievlMn why do I have to have any punishment? I haven't done anything wrong.
MedievlMn I don't like the way you come communicate...that isn't a sin, but a preference..
MedievlMn what are you, some inquisitor that gives people demerits fro failing to take you?
MedievlMn There is no sin here...not on either side,..unless, of course, you want to engage in some religious bigotry..
MedievlMn which I've seen you edge upon..
MedievlMn but otherwise..
MedievlMn my not cottening to you, as per your faceless words on irc..is no sin.
MedievlMn Tjhere is no comeuppance for chosing your friends and correspondents as you please.
MedievlMn what is this judgement fixation you have?
MedievlMn I say again: Live and Let Live.
SirOracle You'll get no punishment from me
MedievlMn spend your millions, and write the great American novel, if you wish...you still suffer badly in translation to me.
MedievlMn that's the whole story...I don't try to diminsh your selfw worth...I just am not a candidate for your inner circle,..that I can see.
MedievlMn why fight that?
SirOracle It's you that you have to live with. I'll be gone soon.
MedievlMn I will attempt to muddle on.
MedievlMn impoverished as you have convinced yourself I'll be.
SirOracle I suggest that you examine your book of labels and see if they really apply.
MedievlMn this threat to "be gone soon"...this isn't some flight-taking, is it?
MedievlMn labels, schmbels..
SirOracle And develop enough insight to see to whom they really apply
MedievlMn you talk too much..no label can save you.
SirOracle You use them. You must set some store by them.
MedievlMn Hooboy, you are bundle of self doubt.
SirOracle I haven't used even one label since we started this little tete-a-tete.
MedievlMn well,..you imply one:
MedievlMn you call me a..
MedievlMn labeler.
MedievlMn ooo that hurts.
SirOracle That is an observation. It's impossible to converse without defining concepts.
MedievlMn I'mn gonna guess out loud here..
MedievlMn if you really are wealthy,..
SirOracle It matters little.
MedievlMn I submit you have not succeeded in buying what you seem to need.
SirOracle I have everything I need, if money can buy it. I find I don't need much.
MedievlMn you have a difficult time fitting in, finding your niche, at least with the written word to strangers, which is always chancey.
SirOracle You are taking certain motives for granted. Let me answer.
MedievlMn whatever you are searching for, it can't be purchased, evidently... or you'd have little time to develop irritating people mightily to an exact science.
MedievlMn why do you do that?
SirOracle Your statement makes certain assumptions. a) that I want to fit in b) I want to fit in a niche c) my words are written with certain assumed motives
MedievlMn with all that money, and all that, uh...talent.
SirOracle Now that's your first relevant question.
MedievlMn I use "talent" advisedly, having been unaware of it thus far, but I'm willing to admit you could be hiding it or, as I say, you suffer greatly in the transmission.
SirOracle And it is based on observation.
SirOracle It might be that what I am doing is effective, but in a way that is foreign to you, and which you would not care to admit.
MedievlMn Do you derive some perverse pleasure out of making a nuisance of yourself?
SirOracle yes
MedievlMn why on earth would that be an advanced calling to you?
MedievlMn It isn't, you know.
SirOracle I'd challenge "perverse".
MedievlMn sorry..
SirOracle Have you read "Gulliver's Travels"?
MedievlMn don't worry..if you do enjoy being a nuisance, any pleasure that arises is perverse.
SirOracle They are your labels
MedievlMn Of course,..and the nuisance you create is more Brodingnagian than Lilliputian.
MedievlMn it's not a calling, it's a sentence.
MedievlMn Brog..
SirOracle Dean Swift wrote Gulliver's Travels for one reason "To vex the world".Would you call that perverse pleasure?
MedievlMn my fault
MedievlMn I would say the object of vexing the world didn't actually do that...
MedievlMn you, however, have good success.
MedievlMn a book about fantastic adventures doesn't vex the world to a pain.
SirOracle He did at the time, because the people he was lampooning were identifiable.
MedievlMn If that is vexing, it is the good side of the force.
MedievlMn perhaps Swift was condemnatory, and the people he was lampooning were better than he was.
SirOracle I'll tell you how it works, if you like.
MedievlMn you never know
MedievlMn arrogance is humankind's most alluring sin.
SirOracle His work survives to delight is all, and theirs doesn't
SirOracle us all
MedievlMn you for example: do you see yourself as more illuminated, more enlightened, more transcendent than most?
SirOracle no. I'm no Dean Swift
MedievlMn are you above the unwashed of the world?
SirOracle I can't extract any meaning from the question. I'm one of them
MedievlMn how elitist are you in your opinion of others vs. yourself?
SirOracle Not in any way, I hope. Obviously I know what qualities I possess, and what I lack.
MedievlMn are we all out here, beneath you and your millions and your supposed writing talents?
MedievlMn are we to be pitied for being dense, labelers, obtuse, unseeing?
SirOracle I didn't say I had talents. That's for others, like you, to say
SirOracle Or deny, as the case may be
MedievlMn well,..time to take flight...the convo is dragging a bit...2:43 here EST.
SirOracle We getting to the interesting bit
MedievlMn as Monty Python says: Run Away!
SirOracle Let me tell you in three sentences, now you're here.
MedievlMn okay
MedievlMn 3 sentences..
MedievlMn go
SirOracle When a man argues a set of views, or adopts a persona, he might not necessarily hold those views and the persona is often a mask or a pretence.
SirOracle When one listens carefully to what people say, disregarding the content and looking instead to their stance, i.e. their reasons for saying it, then it becomes clear what position they wish to occupy with regard to others - Authority, Parent, Teacher, Holier-than-Thou - or whatever it is.
SirOracle It is instructive or interesting - or maybe perversely pleasurable, depending on one's point of view - to occupy the position that they are trying to take
MedievlMn That last sentence is ..
MedievlMn clarity challenged
SirOracle In fact, to be more like them than they are. Then they are put in the position of arguing with themselves, which affords great amusement, diversion and instruction to those who are given to this furious sport.
SirOracle Now you may go.
MedievlMn may I?
MedievlMn okay..
MedievlMn ...Have a good life...tell your gentleman's gentleman I said hello..
Session Close
posted by MacHeath at 7:08 AM
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